This month, Alicia, Janet, Valerie, Marianne, and Lon join Crys and JP for another book club, this time reading Three Story Method: Writing Scenes by J Thorn.They discuss hot takes, useful advice, and how they will incorporate this book’s lessons into their writing craft.
Show Notes
Three Story Method: Writing Scenes by J Thorn
Craft in the Real World by Matthew Salesses
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Transcript
Crys: Hello friends. And welcome to the Write Away Podcast, episode number 98. This is our book club episode, which we are recording June 7th, 2022. And this month we are discussing Three Story Method: Writing Scenes by J Thorn. I think everyone on this call has been introduced to the contents of this book in every way except this book before, so a lot of this was a refresher. And we have a bunch of people on the call today, so I’m gonna have everyone introduce themselves. There’s me, of course.
Alicia: Hey everybody. I’m Alicia McCala. Okay.
Janet: Hi, I’m Janet Kitto.
Valerie: Hello. I’m Valerie Ihsan.
Marianne: I’m Marianne Hansen.
Lon: And I’m Lon Varnadore.
Crys: Excellent. All right, friends. So now that we have read this book, what are your first off thoughts?
JP: I enjoyed it a lot. It basically expanded a piece of the foundations of fiction that was missing. And I’ve been working a lot with J, working on an additional book that will ideally be coming out soon for three story method, and it really breaks down looking at scenes in this fashion. So it’s been really fun reading this version of it to get that kind of back piece.
Marianne: I got it on Kindle and what I loved about it on Kindle was that he hyperlinks everything. So he hyperlinked to JP’s page on theme and he talked about Brian McDonald and he hyperlinked to his blog. And I liked how I was able to go and understand exactly how everything fit together. And so just by buying this book, I was able to get so much more information than just the how to write scenes.
Alicia: I was excited about this, but I want to start by thinking about the question of scenes. So I’ve been writing for well over 10 years and, I feel like over the years, I never really understood what a scene was. So I felt some comfort, because I feel like Jay actually said something like, there are so many different ideas of what scenes are. Some people think of scenes as just chapters or just three parts of a chapter. So it was good to get some basic definitions in there in terms of what actually can be a scene and what are the types of scenes that you can actually be writing. So that, was good for me with the definitions.
Valerie: I also appreciated that he addressed the pantsing versus, plotting because people are so diametrically posed, can be on either side of the fence, and I love that this system works for both. And if you’re a plotter, then you just do this thing first. And if you’re a pantser, then you do this thing last. And it was just really succinct and easy. So I like that it has a wide range when it comes to different writing styles.
Janet: I’ll just add in about the scene rubrics, because the book covers in really good detail about what exactly you need to have in your writing if you want to take it from good to excellent, if you’re missing something, and then of course, when your editor gives you back the scene rubric there’s editor notes in there as well. So I think it’s just really nice that this book goes into great deal about the scene rubric.
Valerie: And that there’s so many different examples that he uses, the masterwork examples and also the layman author examples.
Alicia: Yeah, I felt like with the rubrics, at some point he even said that you can use that if you are in a critique group. So you might not be dealing with an editor, but if you have a critique partner and you guys are trying to help each other learn how to do scenes, that the rubric could be a really good way that you are using the same vernacular, and both could be growing or understanding, like what needs to happen or improve with that.
JP: Absolutely. That’s one of the reasons why I like three story method as a whole is because it creates this shared common language, so that you have these templates and these simplistic ways of approaching how to tell story, so that when you need to communicate that either with an editor or with a critique group, there’s always this shared language. And I found that super helpful in my writing communities.
Marianne: I also like how there’s the worksheets or the things that are laid out so simply and you can just jot down just certain phrases and then work on them, say when you’re in Vegas at a wedding and you can’t have your computer, but you can have your pen and paper there and start jotting down your ideas. That’s a total hypothetical, I don’t know where I came up with.
Alicia: I don’t know Marianne, if you’re in Vegas, I don’t know if you want to be writing scenes, but you might.
Valerie: I also really liked talking about the rubric again, the questions that I think of when I am editing a scene are not all of the questions that are in the rubric, so it helped me to, oh yeah. One of my favorites is the, what’s wrong with this world? What’s wrong in this world? What are you trying to say about this space, this life, this internal and external problem? And that helps me look at my scene in a different way and add bits to it that would make it more rich for the reader.
Crys: Lon, did you have anything?
Lon: Unfortunately, everyone’s already taken my answer.
Crys: Totally fine. I found this book far more applicable to how I work than the first book in this series, which is Three Story Method: Foundations of Fiction, which is a theory of storytelling, it is a plotting structure. And the plotting structure of three-story method for grand overall scheme does not work for me. It’s one of the ones, the seven-point plot structure is another one, where my brain just breaks on it. But the scene elements of three-story method are the ones that I teach over and over. And that I use in my own work.
One of the essential elements, and even like in the wrap up, J says if there’s one thing you take away from this book is that your choice makes your scene. And what he means by choice is that in scene you basically have a starting, middle, and ending. And your middle is the choice, a choice that needs to be made, a choice that moves the character from the beginning to the end of the scene and makes something happen.
And what’s interesting is that while I 100% believe this and use this and follow this 99% of the time, when I took one of my favorite books from the last six months and parsed it out, it had so many slice of life scenes that did not have a choice that did not bother me in the slightest. And I was delighted with those scenes.
Valerie: That’s good for me. I find that a lot of my scenes don’t have choice in it at all. So I have to really struggle hard to. Or the choice is there, but it’s not artfully done. It’s either too obvious or something like that where I have to really reconstruct it or move it or something. And so that’s another reason why I really like the workbook especially because then you can write it all down and see it in a different way.
Crys: I think this is partially a genre thing. So that there are a lot of genres, anything action oriented, most of your sci-fi fantasy, like things that are more adventure oriented, they are going to lean extremely heavily on the reader feeling a sense of fulfillment when you have most of your scenes containing this choice. Things are moving forward rapidly, they are changing rapidly. We see things changing. I think where we see this, where readers are content to not have a choice in every scene, are going to be slower stories. I’m really curious, there’s a movie I love, I don’t know if any of you have watched this. If we’re all ever in the same hotel together, I am going to capture you all and we’re gonna watch Mrs. Palfrey at the Claremont and you may hate me or you may love it. I don’t know, I love Mrs. Palfrey at the Claremont because it is such a slow, quiet movie that is so engaging and not boring.
Alicia: So I did do a lot of bookmarking of the choice too, which is actually interesting because I feel like most of us are very well acquainted with conflict, choice and consequence. But some of the notes that I took was he said everything also above also corresponds to the scene level choice. And that reader’s crave tough choices for the characters. And so I think that’s something that I’m really learning to do.
So I’ve been working with Jeff Elkins, learning how to do the dialogue only drafts. And I think doing that, conflict, choice and consequence in dialogue is tougher to do. And so I’ve really started to zero in more on that choice because that can drive the conversation and really get very engaging. So at some point I do think that J said something like every choice doesn’t have to be like life-or-death consequence. However, when that character is making a choice, especially in a conversation, you can really heighten that tension or really heighten that interaction with that other person.
Marianne: I find it really helpful to focus on and to reread this book and especially when he says, just photocopy this first page, I really liked that. Because I write a lot of humor and I will think of funny scenes and I’ll have people read them and they’ll be like, this is hysterical, but then I’ll read it and I’ll be like, but what’s the point? What is the choice that the characters are making?
And sometimes I try to tell myself that it’s to make me laugh, but I realize that isn’t a real one. But it has been really helpful because sometimes I think we all write amazing scenes, and then at the end of it, we’re like, okay, but what exactly happened here?
Janet: I made that note too, that there has to be when I go through the scene again, was there a change of status quo? And yeah, because it’s really easy to put together a lovely sequence of events. But what was the change? And I love what he has in the book too, about it’s really simple to understand this, you have your conflict, you have your choice, you have your consequence, but writing it is just so much more. That’s what takes the practice.
JP: I really like, Crys, your comment about slice of life and the potential to not have a choice within that. But I almost think that’s For someone who comes from our perspective where we have this choice, that’s almost like being a subtle or masterful approach at writing scenes, as opposed to backwards and what makes up a standard scene or what can really drive the common person forward.
And then you take that and you subvert it, or you lower the level of choice or even eradicate it and add in these different elements. And so it’s interesting when I think about it, because I know like you and I have been talking about like cozy urban fantasies where it’s more of a slice of life and just enjoying the strange and mystical. And I think that’s like a next level that I’m like looking at and I’m like, I don’t know how to get there yet, but I see you.
Crys: Yeah. And there’s, I refer back to another craft book a lot, called Techniques of the Selling Writer by Dwight Swain. And he has two types of scenes that aren’t scenes, because for him also the scene has to have the change. And they are happenings and instances, I think he calls them. Sometimes they’re just used to convey like interstitial information that you just need to know time has passed and some things have happened. Or there’ll be like a scene where you could put a choice in and the choice doesn’t happen. And that is used, like you were saying, next level to show something.
I do think that when you have scenes that don’t have a choice, you need to really lean into whatever the flavor is of the genre you’re writing. So for like fantasy, you’re just going over things that people think are really cool. So if you don’t have a choice, if you don’t have something that’s moving the story forward on the story level, but you need this little bit of slowdown of pacing that isn’t a scene, that it’s this happening, that you need to lean into the Ooh wow factors. Whatever your Ooh wow factor is for your genre, for your book, that’s when you’re going to get the chance to pull those in for scenes that don’t have a choice. And you have to use them knowing why you’re using them, not just accidentally.
Alicia: Did find it interesting too that he gave you the different types of scenes, which I thought was cool. So he had events, realizations, resolutions, and interactions, and he said that conversations could fall under the interactions. But I’ve actually been looking at it as every scene that you have is a conversation because I’m trying to write those dialogue only drafts. But then how do you make, turn that conversation into the realization or into the resolution or into that heightened interaction? Event was on there as well, so there’s a lot going on there.
Marianne: I think of Anne Tyler and how she often writes snippets of life and how her characters make a lot of choices, but they seem so subtle at times. And at other times they don’t. And I need to go back through and the first one that comes to mind is accidental tourist because I love that dog and go through and outline it that way because I find I will often write the more subtle choices. And I need to start studying people who do the same thing.
Valerie: Do you find when you’re reading, I don’t know if this is an appropriate question for book club, but when you’re reading a scene that doesn’t have that choice, that slice of life scene, or the choice is small and subtle like you said, that there has to be more inner dialogue to point the reader and identify this is a choice that they’re making?
Marianne: I don’t think you have to. I think you just have to be really good at it.
JP: I kinda, I think of the epic fantasies where the party basically enters a city. And it’s just the experience of the madness of the city, the different culture that they’re experiencing, but they’re not really making a choice other than to continue walking into the city. And like that can be a whole chapter.
And really the whole point of it is, especially in epic fantasy, like you just want as a reader, you want to be immersed in this new culture, this new experience. So you’re basically like you’re putting the onus on the reader to just enjoy this experience and just continue on this path. And I guess the choice in that scene would be that they continue in the city, but that’s a pretty low level of choice because you’re giving these other pieces.
Crys: And taking that as an example, because the argument that J will often make when he and I have talked about this is you could throw a choice in there. Like someone can get distracted by the scent of these fresh spread and they want to go off and do it, and the others pull them back, and the choices to continue on.
I think that the scenes that do well without having a choice are very short. They’re not a thousand words of not having a choice. They’re 200, they’re 300, maybe 500. So they’re just like aside, like depending on your formatting, you could throw them at the beginning of a scene and it would just seem like this little prologue to the scene kind of thing, possibly. At least in my experience of as I’ve started examining scenes that I think work that don’t have choices, I think that tends to be a commonality is that they are very short.
Janet: I think Valerie was hinting at this. So I think my question is similar, but what about the needs of the character? So the subtext? Because you can make that choice clear with subtext.
Crys: We’re all agreeing, and nobody has an answer for how to accurately put subtext into your story because that is like the most difficult thing, right? That is where the story lies is in the subtext most of the time.
Valerie: I thought that the subtext had to come out through dialogue. True.
Crys: Sometimes, a lot of the time, but not always. If you’re a super atmospheric author, a lot of your subtext is gonna come out in your description.
Alicia: Subtext can even be out in body language depending upon what experiences is going on there. I do want to be a little bit careful though with the slice of life thing and of the not having choice because so you could do that, but you might be making something that’s more literary and not necessarily something that is genre specific or mass market. So you might have to be a little bit careful when you’re doing it.
Crys: And I’ll tell people like the book that I’m referring to that my brain with how often it didn’t have a choice because it’s very genre and that is Lattes and Legends. It is an epic fantasy setting with low stakes. It’s an orc starting a coffee shop and giving up her mercenary life. That’s the book. It’s very genre, but very low stakes. And if it were a high stakes action novel, I’d say you don’t have space for those slice of lifes, probably. Lower stakes novels, I think do, because they’re a calmer book. If you want a high energy book, you have to have the choice because things constantly have to be moving.
JP: Yeah. And I agree with you, Alicia. Like for me, having, being on the earlier end Of published author, like I’m very focused on my scenes having these choices in them having these strong moments, because I know that’s what’s gonna carry the reader. I know that’s what’s gonna garner the biggest attention.
And then in my mind, there’s a little voice that’s talking about like how to be more artful or how to make an artful piece that may not pander to the masses, but it may be something that I just want people to experience as they find it. And I agree with you, that’s almost in that like pseudo literary, almost genre realm. And Legends and Lattes that succeeded and being that mass market. But I think you almost have a risk or a gamble until you know exactly what you’re doing with writing scenes.
Crys: Or you at least know what you’re experimenting with. Yeah. You definitely have to know the rules. I don’t have a flipping clue what I’m doing with slice of life scenes and not having a choice because I’ve been so choice focused. But I know what I’m experimenting and I think that’s just as important. Does anyone have any final thoughts in their notes that they wanted to touch on before we wrap up?
Alicia: So for people who want like action items, J did put in there like the different days. So you can do a five-day challenge and come up with writing a scene. So that’s cool.
Crys: Yeah. The five-day challenge was something he ran live a year or two ago. And he’s reformatted it for folks to run it on their own, to take everything that you’ve learned through this book, he gives you a prompt, you don’t even have to come up with ideas yourself, so that you can experiment on a very small scale of writing a scene with all of the tactics that he taught in this book. And it’s one of the best exercises that you can do for strengthening writing a scene.
Thank you so much everyone for joining us this week. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you on the internet and we’ll go in the same order as before.
Alicia: My name is Alicia McCalla. You can find me at aliciamccalla.com.
Janet: And I’m on Instagram. If you want to find me there, JanetKittoAuthor on Instagram.
Valerie: And I’m Valerie Ihsan at ValerieIhsan.com. Also on Instagram.
Marianne: I’m Marianne Hansen. And you can find me at Instagram at MarianneHansenAuthor.
Lon: Lon Varnadore. You can either find me on Instagram, Dragolite36 or lonvarnadorewriter.com for my blog.
Crys: Thank you everybody so much for joining us for this conversation.
Next month, we will be reading Craft in the Real World by Matthew Salesses. And we’d love if you would read this along and add your comments to the show.
Thanks so much.
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