This month, Alicia, Janet, Lon and Marianne join JP for another book club, this time reading Write Your Novel from the Middle by James Scott Bell. They discuss hot takes, useful advice, and how they will incorporate this book’s lessons into their writing craft.
Question of the week: Have you ever written from the middle? If you haven’t, what does the midpoint look like in your current work in progress? Share your answer here.
Show Notes
Write Your Novel from the Middle by James Scott Bell
Editing Your Novel Structure: Tips, Tricks, and Checklists to Get You From Start to Finish by Bethany A. Tucker
Transcript
JP: Hello friends. This is episode number 87 of the Write Away Podcast and it is March 16th as we are recording. We don’t have Crys today, but we do have a book club. So I’m here. JP Rindfleisch with my guests…
Alicia: Alicia McCalla
Janet: Janet Kitto
Lon: Lon Varnadore
Marianne: Marianne Hansen
Christine: Christine Daigle
JP: Hello, everybody. All right. So we are talking about, Write Your Novel from the Middle,and it is by James Scott Bell. And it is a craft book about approaching a story through the middle and getting that idea as to what that middle point is and crafting your story around that.
All right. What’s some hot takes? Give me some feedback. What did you think about it?
Christine: I thought it was easy to understand. It’d probably be good for newer writers. It’s concepts that I’ve heard a lot of times, a lot of different ways. It’s not the first time I’ve heard mirror moment. I think it’s nice if you really want to look very simply at a character arc. It was decent.
Alicia: Yeah. I feel like I read this book several years ago. So I went back and relooked at my notes, but I agree because now it seems like the concepts are just a part of my ritual. And so I just look for those kinds of things or look for the things that he was talking about in here. But generally, I love James Scott Bell. He’s really good, especially for new writers.
Marianne: I went to a writing conference 10 years ago. He was the first class I went to, which was amazing and horrid at the same time because I expected everyone to be as amazingly good at taking something sophisticated and making it simple for me to understand.
And so then after that, I just started buying and reading his books because I’m not sure he does classes anymore. I know he has a YouTube channel, but I think those are all pretty old too.
Lon: I actually enjoyed it. It was a pretty decent little book that had some interesting information.
Janet: Yeah. And I have to agree with all of that. It’s definitely a book that’s easy reference to come back to because it’s a quick read. It’s really short. And I think the only thing that I hadn’t really touched on before, or hadn’t thought of it in these terms, was he talks about the three kinds of death. And he talks about if you write character driven or plot driven. And so because I think more about character driven, I hadn’t really thought about the three kinds of death, which would be the physical, professional, when there’s something on the line that’s to be lost like a calling in life, a job. Or psychological, and that’s the one that I think about the most is like when there’s some kind of transformation of your character being a fully realized person by the end.
JP: Definitely. That was the key part, key takeaway that I had. And I found that piece was the not really missing piece, but the fill in, or the sweetener, for me understanding what to put in that middle. Because that middle, we always call it like the soggy middle and I hate that so much. And I’m just like, what can we do about this and make it not just so that everyone’s dreading it.
And I think having that midpoint moment, which James Scott Bell was talking about, you know, pause a movie in the middle and hit play, and more than likely, you’ll see that peak point of one of these three deaths that occur. And I can totally agree with that because whenever I watch movies, whenever I read books and I’m about the middle point, that’s where I’m seeing those death moments.
So it was really interesting to look at it that way and add this into my little docket of ideas and thoughts. Anyone else have thoughts about the deaths part of this?
Christine: That wasn’t a new concept to me either, but I liked the way he did it. I heard it called apotheosis and other story theories.
So I think it’s cool cause it’s like you see the same thing over and over again, and it just jives for you when someone puts it a way that you’re like, ah, that makes sense. And I’m like, I see this structure over and over again and different story theories. So I’m like, well, it must be good cause you see it everywhere. It makes sense. There’s so many movies or books where you can think of where you see that moment of death and rebirth. Yeah, so I thought it was spot on.
JP: I like too the mention in the midpoint about it’s like the moment they look in the mirror. I thought that was another fun way of just reemphasizing it and taking stock into what that conflict is. And then as Janet was alluding to, like the whole character or plot driven and seeing like where that falls.
I just watched the new Spiderman, which is very much a character driven, but at the same point in that middle, if you were to pick apart which one it is, it was very plot driven at that point. Which was interesting. It was fun picking it apart and seeing, yes, if you were to pick between these two in the plot driven where you consider all the odds are against them and that the forces are so vast and stocked up against him, then that would very much be a plot driven. I’m not gonna ruin anything for anyone, but it was so sad. But yes, it was fun looking at it in that aspect too.
Marianne: I thought about in a series, if when you plan out a series, if like the middle book should be like a mirror or a moment book as well. I was going to look at like Poldark or like a BBC program and see if the middle program would be that like turning point as well. Mostly because it’s faster to try this with like miniseries then with five books. I don’t write series, but I wonder if people ever plan their series that way, or if it’s even possible if you just keep writing the same characters over and over and it’s not like an overarching, continual storyline.
Alicia: That’s interesting. Maybe if you did, if you had an armature for the entire series, you might naturally come across the spot that was a middle point or that turning point. Or you could use the three CS, but I don’t know that that necessarily would give you the exact middle, but you would at least have that place where there’s conflict and then the choice. Do you know what I’m saying? I think that’s possible for a series.
I didn’t get a sense that James Scott Bell was thinking that when he wrote this one. It was probably more just the middle of one novel or the middle of one show, movie, whatever he would look at.
JP: I definitely agree with that. Especially just like, you know, it was very focused on how to write one book from start to finish. And there was the outlining portion that made me realize maybe I’m not so much an outliner as I thought I was because it was very overwhelming. And in my head, I was like, these are too many points.
Especially coming from Three Story Method because I’ve looked at Save the Cat, and I’ve looked at all these pieces, and I shoved them off away. And I’ve been looking and focusing on Three Story Method, and then I come back to this and I’m like, these are too many points. I can’t do this. But I’m sure for someone.
Christine: I think it depends what kind of story you want to tell. Like Save the Cat is great if you’re going to write a blockbuster. I think he seems to be more enthralled with the fast-paced noir kind of stuff. And I’m like, no, that’s not the kind of story that I write. So I think it probably works well for some stories, but it’s probably not an outline that I would use. That said, I did his little write your pitch in three sentences, with the character and the vocation. I forget what it was, the initial situation. And then when this happens and then now death stakes, I think that’s really useful.
I think it’s useful to do that before you start writing a book to see if it’s an interesting concept. Maybe pitch it to some friends and see if it’s interesting to them. Or maybe, if you have more than one idea, it can maybe really help you see really quickly what the next idea is that’s interesting to other people or interesting to me that I can sustain for a whole book. So I like that, I would probably use that.
Alicia: I’m just looking up to see when this one was written. 2014. So he probably still is way more traditionally published focused at that point. It makes sense to me. But I’ve been reading Chris Fox’s, The Plot Gardening series, and I think it’s got that simplistic structure that you were talking about, but I feel as if that middle is that he naturally put it in there too. I think after a while, you do these things and you just naturally kind of gravitate towards it. And I think Christine is right, people just call it different things or just say it in a different way. I enjoyed this one. It was something in here, it was like a gardening concept, but he had this like Story world or story circle or something like that. I hadn’t heard that before.
Christine: Oh yeah. Story circle. That’s big in screenwriting.
Alicia: So I feel like, yeah. Story structure circle. So then you’ve got that whole thing. And then, so you naturally get that middle part in there, which makes a lot of sense to me. So you go from that life and conscious order to that death and unconscious order. I feel like everybody’s saying this in different ways.
Christine: Yeah. I think that’s a condensed version of hero’s journey, if I remember when they did that story. So it all is sort of the same thing. So I think you’ve just got to find the one that speaks to you. I started with reading Robert McKee’s story and I’m like, eh, I get about 5% of this. And then I heard Shawn Coyne explain it through Story Grid, and I’m like, I understand probably 70% of this. And then we got Three Story Method and I’m like, okay, I understand all of this now. But it’s like a lot of the same theory and I didn’t really get structure. I think the simpler, the better.
I really do like this book for its simplicity because we’re clinicians, we’re not researchers. And we don’t want to do the theory, like the editors, we got to use this as working writers. So anything that’s simple that I can put into practice right away, like I’m a fan. That makes me a fan.
Janet: He has in this book, he uses the three Os, and I immediately thought of the three Cs. It’s the same. He talks about objective, obstacles, outcome. And I immediately just in my head went those are the three CS, the triangle, like I could relate to everything, the simplicity of it. When he starts off with the two pillars and then he talks about the triangle, I’m like, no, I don’t want the pillars. No math. If you’re going to add math in there, I’m going to call myself a pantser, which I normally don’t do, because I would just want to push away from the idea of more points that I have to worry about. So yeah, keep it simple. And the triangle, just the mirror moment, your pre-story for your beginning, the bottom of the triangle on the left, and then the right-hand side of the triangle would be the transformation. That’s all I need.
JP: That’s actually, that’s where I felt like this book shined the most because of the title, Your Novel from the Middle. And so it was very focused on finding this mirror moment and then using that as leverage to figure out what’s your pre-story and what your transformation is going to be. Then ironically, it goes into outlining and it’s starting from the beginning, which I got very angry about. But at least I appreciated the triangle portion where it was actually focused very heavily on that middle piece, and then using that as leverage to build the foundation around it. That’s a piece that I’m definitely gonna take as opposed to the outlining.
Lon: Just to jump on piggybacking off of what Christine and Janet said, because it’s simplistic, it helps people get back into the actual writing, which is something that a lot of us have said is we feel as though we’ve heard this over and over again. And we’ve done this over and over again, to a point where it’s just air while we’re writing. And then that’s just, that’s something that came across was the fact that this is something that is very simple and easy to understand and get you right back to the actual work.
Christine: I wanted to try his little meditative exercise in there. Did anyone do it? I’m like, I need this as like a guided meditation with someone speaking it. We need to do that. We’ll make that app.
JP: That was actually an interesting piece at the end where he gave up some tips. And I’m curious for you guys, because I am a disorganized monster. And I know at least Alicia, you’ve showed me your Scrivener Idea folder and action folder, and I freaking love it. But he talks about how you generate ideas, how you keep them, and gives some idea as to how you organize them.
And I’m very curious, how do you guys organize your plans, ideas, and that like nugget of information that you want to take with a story that you are not ready to do yet?
Alicia: The librarian has this elaborate Scrivener file called the McCalla method, where I take all of my ideas and put them in all these folders. I actually have a project in Scrivener called Ideas, or short fiction, or something ideation. And so I just take, if I come up with any concept, I put it in a folder, I write it out, and then I just start lobbing ideas in there.
And when I get that feeling like, Ooh, I need a story idea, or I need something to write on, then I just go look to see what’s in there. Some stuff is fleshed out all the way, because you get these moments of inspiration and then you would just say, let me stick that article in there. And next thing you know, you’ve got everything that you need to create your story,
Lon: I have about 17 different idea folders with anywhere from two different pages that have completely different things, to one folder has listed for about three or four months. I was able to keep doing like November, December or whatever it was. It’s like idea, and it had maybe five different Scrivener pages in each one. Most of them completely different, every once and again there was about three pages that have a through line to it of any kind of.
But as far as going back, I think I did that maybe once or twice for a Vella series. In fact, I did do that. I can actually say that because there is a Vella series that I started because of an idea that I ran across. I’m like, oh, Hey, there’s three or four things in here. I can crank out like 10 episodes. Sure.
It’s just complete unorganized mess. The thing is, I’ve got a Scrivener on my laptop, I’ve got another Scrivener on my iPad, and I’ve got another Scrivener on my phone. So that’s three different ones, three different folders. All of them have ideas. It’s just, it’s a mess. Mostly it’s a pray that I can remember this when I get home and write it somewhere else.
Alicia: You gotta come up with a system, Lon.
JP: We all need some McCalla Method going on.
Christine: You want an opposite end of the spectrum. I’ll give you one. I don’t write any ideas down and I don’t keep them anywhere. I figure if they’re high concept enough and interesting enough, I’ll remember them. And I do.
JP: I love it.
Christine: And I have more ideas than I can write. So I’m like, okay, the good ones will stay and my subconscious will work on them. And then when there’s time, I’ll do it. So I have a couple floating around in there that if I ever have time, I’ll write. I don’t keep any kind of folder or write down any ideas.
Marianne: My problem is if I start doing things like that, I don’t find just one article, put it in, and then go on with my day. I go down a rabbit hole and I’m there for hours, and then I haven’t done anything on whatever I’m currently working on. And then also, I want to start working on the new idea because it’s like fresh in my mind and I’m like, oh, this is exciting. My other, what I was writing, is stupid. It’s not though. Nothing I write is ever stupid. That was Marianne
JP: Janet.
Janet: Alicia, that’s the ideal. That’s what I would love to be able to say I do, but I don’t. But how do I get my ideas? I start with a quote. I just see something, and I like quotes because to me that’s a really succinct way of saying that’s my armature. And I usually write everything in notebooks on paper. And then I wonder where the hell I put it.
Alicia: Oh my.
JP: So the reason I wanted to ask that question and get different perspectives was just because getting the one perspective of how to put your ideas down, to me, I don’t like that. I like to know that there are many ways, from complete chaos to very well-organized structure.
I know for me, like I’ll write ideas down on post-it notes that I will find in the corner of the attic five years later. And it’ll be like green goblin outside river. I don’t know what that meant. And it doesn’t matter because it was an idea that is gone out of my head. But then I’ll find something else maybe a couple of years later and I’ll be like, oh, that was a good idea. And then I’ll start percolating it. But the intent was to have written it down to let that become materialized. And then if it matters enough, it will retain in my head. That’s like the only reason I’m actually putting it somewhere. But yeah, I just wanted to know what everyone else thought and did.
Alicia: Incubation is a thing though. I think we all have to figure out what’s the best way to incubate. Even if for some people they can write it down on a sticky note, and then there’s, oh, I remember! What’s the name of that movie with doc? And he wrote his compressor down on the, oh, what’s his name?
Lon: Back to the Future?
Alicia: Yeah. Back to the Future. Yes. I remember the day.
JP: The last question: who is this book for? That is my question for everyone.
Christine: Writers.
JP: Thank you so much. I’ll talk to you later. So, for me, I guess I’ll answer since I asked the question. I think that this is for that sort of beginner. I don’t know if this is the first book I would recommend a writer to read as opposed to maybe a supplementary book that is lacking on that middle piece, on the piece where we’re talking about what that midpoint looks like.
I personally don’t feel like it’s as strong in the, like how to start a novel or how to end it, as it is with the middle piece. So I almost find this as like a, what would you call that, a secondary beginning writer?
Alicia: Intermediate?
JP: What is it? A2 in language learning. Something along those lines. That’s where I would personally recommend it.
Alicia: Yeah, because maybe you need some kind of experience with getting to a soggy middle, and then you go, oh, this is messed up. I feel like that’s how we all get to James Scott Bell though, because you messed up on something and then you’re looking to fix whatever that problem is.
So you have to have some kind of skill or experience with, I’m stuck here in the middle and I don’t know why or understand? Or is that what was wrong with my story because the middle sucks, and I didn’t know it? Or something like that, perhaps.
Marianne: I think this can also be good for new authors because it’s so short. And when I first started writing, I bought so many books and got so overwhelmed, and then put them all away and did nothing. And the fact that you could read this in an afternoon if you truly wanted to, and it gives you somewhere to feel like you’re starting, I think that is a huge plus for beginning writers.
Janet: I think this book is for someone who’s always thought about reading Dwight Swain. Which with Crys not here, I feel like I need to mention Dwight Swain because she always talks about the book Techniques of the Selling Writer. And he has mentioned twice in this book, so this book could be for someone who’s always thought about reading Dwight and this will make you think, yep, I got to pick up that book.
Alicia: In the beginning I loved Dwight Swain. I used to read everything he had. Yes, I was a Dwight Swain fan. I feel like as writers, you go through phases of different writers as well, people to teach you writing. I, in the very beginning, I think the Marshall Plan, was that Evan Marshall or something?
Does anybody remember that? No. Okay. I’m dating myself.
Marianne: I thought the Marshall Plan had to do with like world war. No, I’m just kidding.
Alicia: No, ma’am. Not that Marshall Plan.
Evan Marshall was like an agent or something. And I feel like he had a whole workbook that you can look at and like kind of grid papers or grid sheets or something that you can lay out or lay down.
Obviously nobody’s stuck with it, right?
JP: So before I cut all of you off, I would like to know where I can find all of you.
Alicia: My name is Alicia McCalla and you can find me at aliciamccalla.com to read some incredible strong black women characters, science fiction, and fantasy.
JP: Christine?
Christine: You can find me at christinedaiglebooks.com and serialfictionshow.com. Shout out to JP’s other podcast.
Janet: I’m Janet Kitto. And you can find me at janetkitto.com and probably not too soon cause I’m working on the website.
JP: Lon?
Lon: You can reach me at lonvarnadorewriter.com
JP: And Marianne?
Marianne: I am at mariannehansen.net. And it is also, I like to say it’s under construction, but it may just be one of those web sites that’s like the house that you always are just upgrading. I never quite finished the remodel. That’s what my website might be.
Janet: I’m going with that too. Exactly.
JP: All right. I got to do three things before we go, otherwise Crys will come after me. So first one…
Alicia: I was trying to tell you, you were amazing today. I appreciate you.
JP: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate all of you wonderful people.
So a question to our readers. This book is about writing from the middle, so I’m curious, have you ever written from the middle? And if you haven’t, then I’m curious with your current work in progress, what is that midpoint look like? Is it in the terms of the three types of deaths, the physical professional, or psychological? What kind of death would that be? And think through that process and then let us know. If you haven’t thought about that, what would that process look like for you?
Next, we have a Patreon it’s patreon.com/WriteAwayPodcast where you can join us and you can have the chance to join in on this book club which is pretty sweet.
And last but not least, our next book for next month is going to be Editing Your Novel Structure: Tips, Tricks, and Checklists to Get You From Start to Finish by Bethany A. Tucker. So we will be recording that in about a month. So come check it out and that’s all I got folks. See you later, bye!
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