Episode 80: How do you figure out your theme?

In this week’s episode, JP and Crys discuss different ways to figure out the theme/armature of your book. 

Question of the week: Tell us about your themes! Share your answer here.

Show Notes

Everything Is Figureoutable by Marie Forleo 

Support us on Patreon!

Transcript

JP: Hello friends. This is episode number 80 of the Write Away Podcast, and it is the 27th of January as we are recording. I’m JP Rindfleisch with my cohost…

Crys: Crys Cain.

JP: How’s it going, Crys?

Crys: It’s going pretty good. Mostly because we’ve spent the last 30 minutes laughing our butts off as we recorded our Tarot episode for the month and you turned into a teenager.

JP: It’s true. I sure did.

Crys: How’s your writing week gone?

JP: You’re not going to tell me how you’re writing week has been? You’re just going to jump to me?

Crys: I don’t know. I don’t even remember if I wrote this week. I actually had to think because I have a Friday meeting with a friend where we do accountability or checking in with each other with progress on projects. And I was like, did I forget that? No, it’s tomorrow. So I have to write something today.

Yeah, this week I didn’t write much on the projects I wanted to. I have been doing more trying to feed my strengths, and one of my strengths is input. And if you’re not familiar with the strengths of referencing, it’s the Clifton Strengths, and intellection and learning. And I have had thoughts turning around in my head for years and have not been really putting them into cohesive thought very often.

So yesterday, I spent probably close to an hour just writing like kind of a blog post that I had thought of. And so I have not had a blog in forever, literally forever. I think when Facebook came along that took the place a bit for me, and then five years ago I hopped off Facebook completely, and then only like last year hopped back on it. But I still don’t post the way I did when I was in college. And Facebook is not the place for nuanced thoughts.

And so especially with our conversations of diversity, inclusion, and the purpose of that, I’ve thought about putting some of those mid space, cohesive thoughts, like where I’m like, Hey, I’m thinking through this process and I’m sharing it with you, but I haven’t landed on my theory of anything.

So I’ve thought about writing those as blog posts. So I’ve started writing thoughts that I can put into blog posts occasionally. One is SEO because these are the kinds of things that are going to show up in my fiction. But two, just to reach out to other writers who are really interested in processing these thoughts and helping each other grow.

So that’s where my brain went this week, which is not helpful when I’m trying to produce but it might be helpful in the long run just for like my base creative life.

JP: Definitely. And I think too, like having that part out in the open, the middle ground where you’re trying to get from point A to point B, I always find that more beneficial as like a listener, as like a reader. Just because you’re not the expert, so I don’t have that like “you’re on this pedestal and I don’t know the route that you got to it.” But instead, I can see like the path that you made and I can be like, I can do that too.

Crys: Indeed. How about you then? Now you can tell me about your writing week.

JP: Yeah, now I can tell you. This week’s been good? Yes, it’s been good. I don’t know why that was a question. I’ve been able to keep up with the edits and I am like oddly very, very close to the end of edits for book three. And then the next few things I need to do are like the super duper fast edits.

Like we’re crazy on track and we have a plan to publish three of them this year. And I think that we’re on track, which I don’t know if I knew what that meant before, but I think that I know what that means now. Which is cool, I’m really excited. And also I’m almost done with big edits for one of the nonfictions that I’ve done.

And I’m also like working on something for the NRDS novella, which is different than the Vella. It’s same content, but we’re just revamping it to release. And I have an extra content thing to do there.

So it’s weird because everything is like super-duper close to being done. And I’m just like, ah! But I haven’t crumbled into pieces yet and I’m actually having a lot of fun doing all of it. And it’s a good feeling. It’s all good, good things.

Crys: Delightful. Well, our topic this week is along the lines of your specialty, which is: how do you figure out your themes/armature? I feel like there was another slash in there, like another word, but I don’t remember.

JP: My word for theme which is hypothesis.

Yeah, I pitched some ideas to you and I’m glad you picked this one because I could probably talk about theme for days.

Crys: I think there’s two ways we need to come at this. One is before you start writing, like if you are trying to figure out your theme. And then two, after your book is done, how do you figure out your theme, like your first draft?

JP: Yeah, definitely. And I think that those can change and I think that it’s okay that those change. I think that’s like another key for people. Because nothing is ever set in stone, so don’t worry about it. But I do think that there is value in having an idea as to what your theme is before you write. Because I think that having that theme drives your story forward, it lets you know what the right decisions to be made are, which is why I’m in the proponent of theme.

Crys: So how do you go about that, Mr. JP?

JP: So I think first of all, the theme stands for what is the point of your book? And I think that’s like the key thing is what’s the point? What are you trying to say? I’ve never liked when someone is like, what are you trying to say? And yet here I am saying it, which is why I like reverting back to what’s the point. What’s the intention that you’re trying to make while writing this piece?

And when theme was originally sold to me in late high school it was always these like broad concepts of love and socialism and whatever, and like that doesn’t help at all.

If I want to write about love, like I’m just going to write a romance and I’m going to totally forget about the theme. But I think that you can use statements, which is why Brian McDonald really promotes idea of armature to really bring forth this core central thought, this core central point that you’re trying to make that brings across into this story.

Crys: Yeah. In You’re Gonna Need a Bigger Story they refer to it as your soap box. Another way I think of phrasing it for most of us, and this won’t apply to all authors, but it’s what do you believe so deeply that it makes sense to write a story about how you see that play out in your world?

JP: Exactly. And so the other key component that I think helps with not only determining what your theme is but making sure that like your characters align with your theme, is really knowing your characters wants and needs. Because if they don’t align with your theme, then you’re just trying to shove a theme into a story.

So if this thing revolves around love. And maybe your idea is that a love between, or like star-crossed lovers is, I don’t know, like the best love there is, and you can’t ever break those bonds apart regardless of distance. So it’s a story about two characters that have to be across world and their love is so strong that distant relationships last, or something like that.

So your internal wants and needs need to revolve around that type of love. It can’t be that your main character is looking to start a business and that’s their like internal need is that they need to have this financial stability. Like without having that aligned with that theme, they’re almost two broad concepts that don’t clash together.

Crys: That do clash together?.

JP: Yes, that do clash together. I know my words.

Crys: Just clarifying.

What do you say specifically to people who are like, the point of my story is just to entertain, just be enjoyable?

JP: Hmm. But no. If you are writing genre fiction, you have a plot. That plot is something along the lines of either hero’s journey, heroine’s journey. It has a genre that it fits into romance, thriller, post apoc. If you pick a genre, you are going to hit a theme, period. Like you can’t miss it. Post apoc is all about survival. It’s all about societal breakdowns and this need to survive even when the core of humanity is broken apart. What does humanity mean? Like those are all themes that are hit in post apoc.

If you write a story about someone frolicking in a post-apocalyptic world and they do nothing, that’s not post apoc genre. That’s like literary fiction with post apoc dressing, if that makes sense. And I think that when we talk about genre fiction, we talk about like how stories sell because they hit this beat, they hit this internal gut punch. And those are all revolved around theme.

You’re trying to say something about the world. You’re either very strongly trying to say something about the world or you’re just hitting on feeling that you’ve had growing up. And I think even, I think the key for people writing fiction, is even if they’re not thinking about these themes, your readers are. And they’ll pick up on pieces that you’ve written because your life experience that you are reflecting on the page is a reflection of a theme. It’s just whether or not you’re conscious of what you’re writing.

Crys: Yeah. And subconsciously you are going to write your beliefs, whether you intend to or not. If you do it consciously, you can do it more powerfully.

JP: Exactly. A hundred percent. And I think that’s the part that I really feel that resonance of a theme.

So like TJ Clune’s intention is to always write about kindness. Kindness in and of itself is a super broad theme, but I think that he hits home in his stories because he has these characters that he’s reflecting as he’s thinking about like, this is my theme, it’s kindness. And they’re almost like reflecting that, and what that means, and how to approach those aspects.

Crys: I would challenge calling that a theme. Like he may call it a theme, but I would challenge calling that a theme under our definition. I’d say that’s his topic.

JP: Exactly. To be fair, like I’ve been thinking about it and I think The House in the Cerulean Sea, in my opinion, the key to that story is pushing past the expectations we impose on ourselves and by those that like oppress us, and just let love in and that’s where we find true family. So to me, that story is a theme about letting love in and being kind to yourself and no longer allowing those oppressive forces.

So his topic of kindness is intertwined in our definition of theme, which is a clearer statement to be made about letting kindness of yourself, like being kind to yourself.

To that point, I think that when you come up with your theme or your statement, to me, those themes are best represented whenever the internal changes that occur within your character are reflected externally. What that means is when in The House in the Cerulean Sea, when he’s not kind to himself, when he lets people oppress him, like the world is drab, it’s gray, he’s upset. The world responds to that fact that he is shutting off. He’s not kind to himself, so the world’s not going to be kind in favor. But the moment he starts to let in love, the moment he starts to accept these friendships and be kind to others, others start to open up to him more than just that surface level. Like you’re our best friend.

Cause that’s the other bit of the story is obviously he goes to this place and people are trying to bring them into this family. But like the more he starts to let it in, the more response he gets back. And any moment he shuts off, other shut off back. And that’s that external response that’s playing with this theme.

And you can see that in a Star Wars. Luke’s faith in a higher power leads to the beginning of the fall of the empire. So Luke has to believe in the force and when he believes in the force, the empire falls. When he falters that belief, then the empire has little wins throughout the story. And I think that there’s a clear correlation between theme and the way that your story is driven forward.

Crys: So with that kind of understanding of how themes useful and we don’t want to just throw a theme at something and say this is the theme, but not actually craft it with the characters and with the plot, what do we do? Or what can we do? What are ways?

JP: This is going to work best for planners. I’m sorry, pantsers, you’re going to deal with it afterwards. But I think for planners, when you figure out what your plot is and for us for three-story method, that’s your Pixar pitch, your log line. And when you figure out your characters and what they want. It then leads to this opening of what is that core theme? What drives your plot forward and reflects those internal wants and needs intermixed with the genre that you’re picking.

And it’s almost like you have these three points of a triangle. What’s the middle? What’s the thing that’s the glue that’s holding it together? You can of course draw the outline. You can of course write the story like that. But if you know what that middle looks like, you could have a stronger story. Because you can make those arguments throughout your plot that drive those characters wants and needs and it just makes for a stronger story.

So I think that’s how you start is you figure out plot, character, genre. And then you ask yourself what are some topics that I want to hit on that match this?

Crys: Probably the way that I do it is I use the tool of figuring out what is my characters lie that they believe, because that’s the lesson each individual like main character has to learn. And then I look for what’s the commonality between the lies that my characters believe.

And for my serial, the commonality and the topic is: where is human worth derived from? And so my theme is probably something, you know, I haven’t reviewed it as I’ve changed things and got started writing on it. My theme is probably something of like: you have worth, regardless of your accomplishments or position in life or ability. And I think that why that’s coming up is, for me, is that’s a topic that I’ve been really curious in exploring. Because as a human, I have always defined my worth on my ability to produce like very cool things, massive amounts of things very quickly.

And I’ve often wondered, especially when I was in burnout, if I were to become so disabled that I could not do what I currently do at even a fraction of the level that I currently do, how would I define my worth? Like, how would that like actually sit within my body?

And so each of my characters is dealing with a lie about where their worth comes from. And I’m exploring that through each character with their different facets of the theme.

JP: And I think with that statement, like you have worth regardless of your circumstance or however you had worded it. Like that immediately makes me think of different scenes. You have various scenes where you have different levels of your circumstance and you still show that worth. But then you also have, what does that mean when you don’t believe that? And you can ask those questions and you can have scenes regarding that.

And that’s how the internal reflection of what you believe externally reflects the world. Because if you don’t believe that you have worth, then the world may not believe that as well. Because it sounds to me like with this story it’s a strong thing about like, you have to find the self-worth in yourself to then have the world reflect that back to you. If that makes sense.

Crys: I think that also you can come at this, and this is I think the way that that You’re Going to Need a Bigger Story with their story worlds comes at it with their soapbox. You can sit down and make a list of things that you believe so strongly that you could keep writing on the different facets of that topic forever.

 You could build your story around the topic or theme, specifically the theme that you want to explore. I don’t know that most people think that way though. That’s an extremely top-down approach and a very architectural approach. Whereas figuring out your plot and your characters and seeing what theme pops up is a more exploratory approach. Which I think most people will be more comfortable with, especially in the beginning.

JP: I think too, like Dana Kaye has in her Your Book, Your Brand, a work piece where you take your pieces of work that you’ve already written, and you look for the themes that are listed there and if there are any commonalities.

I think for the most part, most people are going to have commonalities, especially if it’s within genre. I think some people, based on the point in their life when they wrote that, or just on what they’re exploring as a person, they may have separate themes. But I think that there is a key to doing that and reflecting in your work in your past to let that reflect what your future is or what like your common themes are.

And I think that, like for me especially, I have a lot of re occurring themes that I like to write about because I have strong opinions about them. I think for the most people, they’re going to have those similar themes, because it’s almost like you’re reflecting your life experiences through your story.

Crys: Yeah. If you aren’t able to come up with themes as we’ve defined them, which is your thesis, like a sentence that can be proved or disproved. Starting with what your topics are, like I talk about injustice, I talk about found family, that’s a good way to start because then you can ask yourself, you know, not looking at the work you’ve written, say, okay, I have this topic of found family. What do I believe about found family?

JP: Yeah. That’s where I start with every time that I’m picking apart someone’s theme. Because for The Serial Fiction Show we do this, we do the armature for every episode that we read, and I always start with, what was the topic? Well, It seemed to be injustice.

Okay. What happened in this story, in this episode that makes a comment about injustice? It’s either that the pillars of justice that currently exists are discriminatory or it’s that justice needs to be served to those that deserve it. Something like that.

I always start with that topic and then I always drill down asking those questions about like, okay what is this piece really saying? What happened in the story to really drive that? So I think that’s at the tail end, but I think you can use that at the beginning of it as well. What’s the topic I want to talk about? Okay. What’s my belief in that?

Crys: I agree.

What if you have several themes that you’re like, I don’t know, these could all fit my story?

JP: I think that there are many stories that have different types of themes because we all have many things that we want to say. We’re not one-track mind things. We always have an opinion about something. However, I think it’s important to have a strong thread as opposed to many potentially weak threads. If that makes sense.

For me, I want to have that strong resonating beat, that one strong theme that people have that gut feeling towards. That’s mine. If you want to have multiple themes, you are more than welcome to. But I think it makes sense to me to have this one theme, to work it through, to get it the way you want it said, just because that’s my approach towards it. That’s my way of saying like, this is what I want to say. This is what this piece means to me.

Crys: Yeah, I like that.

JP: I don’t want to discourage people if they want to have multiple themes. That’s my key. Like have them if you want.

Crys: And especially when you have a series, when you have a longer series, you’ll often have an overarching theme. Or you might simply have a topic, like I am going to explore the different facets of XYZ. And then each book might have its own particular theme. Like this theme we’re going to talk about. Like, you know, if the topic is immigration, then the theme of book one could be “the land of dreams is sometimes a hellscape.” There’s a lot of different themes you could come up with under that topic.

Is there anything else that you wanted to say particularly about that?

JP: I mean, I think different characters can have different themes as well. I think that, like the first thing I think of is the Lord of the Rings. The clear one being that Sam and Frodo clearly have different themes because Sam comes back to the Shire and he is with his family, but Frodo has grown out of that.

But both their themes revolve around the fact that they’ve left home and they’ve grown into their own selves by no longer being around that protective force. And one has learned how to bring that back to a community. And the other has become so much more than the community that they no longer fit into that community, and they have accepted the fact that they can move on.

Both have different themes, but at the same time they have the same theme about leaving. So it’s like threads of the same piece, if that makes sense. And that’s how you can reflect multiple opinions or multiple concepts that hit you, is by putting them into a character as opposed to one character having to carry the burden.

Crys: We want to talk more about how you can discover this after you’ve written your first draft. So we’re going to do more on this topic next week, particularly about finding your theme after your first draft. Or maybe your three books into a series and you’re trying to dig this out because there’s just so much to talk about on this topic.

JP: Absolutely. I’m excited.

Crys: Tying in with this topic, our book for our book club is Everything is Figureoutable.

So if you’d love to read that book along with us and perhaps join us for the live recording, You can check out our Patreon and the link will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us this week.

JP: Thank you. Tell us about your themes. See you later.