This month, Janet and Lon join JP and Crys for another book club, this time reading Save the Cat! Writes A Novel by Jessica Brody. They discuss hot takes, how it compares to other methods, and what they liked and disliked about the book.
Show Notes
Save the Cat! Writes a Novel by Jessica Brody
The Story Grid by Shawn Coyne
The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien
Harry Potter by J.K. Rowling
The Secrets of Story by Matt Bird
Wide for the Win by Mark Leslie Lefebvre
Transcript
Crys: This is episode 47 of the Write Away Podcast and it is June 9th as we’re recording. I’m Crys Cain with my book club co-hosts…
JP: JP Rindfleisch.
Janet: Janet Kitto.
Lon: Lon Varnadore.
Crys: And Marianne is apparently on a boat somewhere. I don’t know, but we’re here to talk about Save the Cat Writes a Novel.
I think the subtitle is “the last book on writing you’ll ever need.”
How do we feel about that statement, friends?
Lon: Just going to start with that right away?
Crys: Just going to start there, right there.
Lon: Just going to launch right into it, huh? Ah, last book you’ll ever need about writing. Oh, that’s a flex. Not a good one, but it’s something. It was alright overall, but just very basic. I have words, so I will let other people talk now.
Janet: Words are better than numbers. Because this is probably the last book I would read that made it all about the percentages. But I found myself when I was reading it, taking a lot of notes for the project that I’m working on. So, I can’t give it a total pass.
JP: Okay. So, did I love it? No. Did I hate it? No.
I also have Save the Cat, the original one, which I realized when I was talking to Crys that I only read 25% of and then apparently just forgot it existed. Oops. But I didn’t hate it. I liked it in one aspect, because it was very like super simplistic structure that I can apply to movies really quickly.
And for me, when I write, I associate writing with movies first over other books. So, in that aspect, I liked it.
Crys: I also own the original Save the Cat and apparently read 50% of it before I dropped it and never picked it up again. And I did compare it a bit to this book. And I think when I compared it, that there is an unwritten expectation that you have read the original Save the Cat before you read Save the Cat Writes a Novel.
Lon: Fully agree on that. And I have actually read all of the original Save the Cat, for other reasons, and yeah, but even then I still had my own problems with this particular book. And one that Janet did bring up was the percentages. That was a little too much.
Crys: So, let me describe that for anyone who hasn’t read the book yet.
So, Save the Cat, first of all, lays out Blake Snyder’s beat sheet which is 15 plot points that they say you will hit in every novel. This kind of correlates with Story Grid’s 15 essential scenes. Not quite, but it equates somewhat with the hero’s journey. And it has percentages of how much of the story you want to have told by the time you hit this beat.
And this came originally from Blake Snyder’s review of a lot of the popular, successful movies that they tended to hit these points at about the same point, percentagewise, of a movie. And so, the author of this book did the same for novels.
JP: So, like the interesting part about that to me is there is a piece of when you’re drafting that you roughly know the percentages that you’re at, but it’s going to hit so many edits before you actually get to the finalized piece, and that was the part that I think doesn’t resonate with me. I almost view this more as a, once you have drafted, once you have finished, this is what you can look at afterwards to relate.
And that’s why I really liked it for movies because you have a finalized product that you can then map to those beat sheet. And then you can internalize that and consider it for your writing. But it was almost always for me, like an editing tool, as opposed to a planning tool.
Crys: I have a question.
Who do you think would benefit from this book?
Janet: Someone who’s writing a hero’s journey, which I’m glad that in our book club we’ve already covered the heroine’s journey.
That was the other problem that I had with this book was I had to keep telling myself the main character, not the hero, because I don’t think in those terms of writing with the hero’s journey.
Lon: Also, someone who needs some type of structure. Especially like those who are starting out who have seen movies and they’re like, Hey, I want to try to write something that could one day be something like that. I could definitely see that would be a good gateway for someone to start up to read this. Because that is one thing that I would say that is a positive, is that there is a good basic structure in there. Unfortunately, it’s also for certain books, not for writing all kinds of books.
Crys: I messaged the crew and I was like, ah, I don’t know, like maybe a quarter or a third of the way through, angry and I didn’t know why.
So, I was just verbally flailing about, I don’t know why I’m frustrated, but I am. And in talking through it, I think part of what I came to is that my expectations of this book were higher than it was delivering, because it has helped so many people. I know a lot of people who love this book and I didn’t find it had the value I was hoping it would have. And so that’s definitely like a me problem right there. And when I dug a little deeper, I realized that one of the problems I had is that I expected it to be something new. But this, the Save the Cat methodology has been around for a red-hot minute. And so, it’s worked its way into a lot of other methodologies.
They have built off of it. They have refined it. And so, this is, I don’t know, like a 15-year-old who’s grown up on modern, epic fantasy, reading Lord of the Rings and being like, oh gosh, this is so overdone. Like I feel like that’s the experience I had reading this book.
Lon: But I agree with you. Cause the thing is other people have taken, just even Snyder’s thing of Save the Cat, and refined it and made it and changed it and made it their own thing. And have since come out with other things that we have also read or internalized, whatever.
To the point where it is something like you’re looking back at certain things. And I also had my own issues with it more than anything because of actually what I do more of. I write more like series, not a single standalone book. Pretty much everything in Save the Cat Writes a Novel, it’s a standalone.
Yes, you have Hunger Games, but I will agree. I will fight to my dying day that she wrote that as a standalone. And then the publishers came to her with a dump truck full of money and said, here we need more of those, write them.
Crys: And to build off what you’ve said, she also used the first Harry Potter as an example, and I vehemently disagreed with her interpretation of the plot points for Harry Potter.
Lon: I have my own issues when people talk about theme. We have discussed it, and JP definitely knows where I’m going with this. But like when it comes to, oh, you need to state your theme before everything, that’s patently untrue, for me. That’s how it works for me. It might work for other people, not for me. And like I had forgotten the Harry Potter thing, plus I’m not a giant Potter fan, so it never really registered in the brain I think.
It also feels very paint by the numbers. It’s very basic and it’s very much how movies are supposed to be made for the largest group of people imaginable. And it’s the same thing with this book, is you’re trying to write for a single book that is for the widest group available.
JP: Yeah. I as I was reading this, I watched the Disney movie on Disney plus the Raya and the Last Dragon, I think it is. And I had this Save the Cat in mind while I was watching it. And, we were about, I don’t know, like 10% in, percentages. And I was like, oh, the themes coming up. And then someone like on beat said the theme of the story, which is all about like people actually listening to each other and coming together.
I can’t remember the exact words, but it was like clearly stated. And that’s the part that I want to say I like Save the Cat because you can watch something that is within a short period of time for a broad audience and be able to pick up on those notes. So that’s the part that I think that like someone starting out, this is a really good formula to apply to movies and be able to see those points.
Because when we start talking about Three Story Method, even though it’s simplistic, when I first got it, choice was a difficult one for me to wrap my head around. And thinking back to a couple of years ago when I was just starting out, I don’t know if I would have been able to grasp that. Whereas this, it was easy to grasp every little piece of it, see the examples from movies and be able to relate it easier to me.
Crys: Do you think that Save the Cat Writes a Novel, explain things clearly enough without the basis of Save the Cat?
JP: I can’t answer that because even though I didn’t finish the actual Save the Cat book, I looked it up, which I think is part of the reason why I stopped reading it is because there’s so many resources online also on how to do it.
And I’m one of those people that work better off of example, than someone explaining each and every little bit of it to me. So that was partly why I also liked the examples because it beats it in your head and you just remember it. But yeah, at the same point in Writes a Novel, when you talk about Harry Potter, I also didn’t resonate with the points that she pulled out from that. I feel like it’s harder to align this to an actual novel, but it’s really good tool to reference other media to then figure out how you can write a novel.
Janet: She also talks about process, like she doesn’t want to change our process, but she just wants us to understand the goal of the story. So, in that sense, I think that whether you read this as the first book, when you’re starting to write or somewhere along your journey, like you’re just going to take what you need from it.
Crys: Yeah, I think that’s absolutely fair. If you are the kind of person who learns really well by picking apart examples, and this particular methodology works for you, the Save the Cat Writes a Novel has the advantage over the Save the Cat book because it has so many novel examples.
One small grump that– I have the same grump with Story Grid– is it talks about the different kinds of stories as genres. Story Grid talks about the internal genre. I am adamant that genre should only be applied to marketing and that we need to find a different word for talking about whether it’s master plots or master themes, something else.
Those things need to be called things that are not genres because it screws so many new authors up when they’re like, but how can my story be a judgment story if it’s sci-fi? Or whatever it is. And it’s just plain confusing, but that is not exclusive to Save the Cat.
JP: I agree with that because there was a part in there that she talked about, I can’t remember which book it was, but she’s like, this book could be this genre or it could be this genre, but I picked this genre, so we’re going to stick with that one. But she didn’t write it, so she’s clearly imposing her own opinion on it. But what was the author thinking at the time?
What genre were they picking and what conventions as it was listed in the book, were they trying to hit? Because I bet that they probably hit several conventions of several of the defined genres. So, to your point, like if you try to silo or pigeonhole these things, you as a writer, may be intentionally missing points that you shouldn’t have because you thought, oh, that doesn’t fit my genre.
Lon: Something JP kind of brought up with like story grid and how story grid is more like the editing tool, even this, you could look at it as just, this is just another editing tool. More than an actual something that should read before you start writing or use it as a way to plan out whatever it is that you’re going to write.
But then of course you could also apply that to every craft book we’ve read. But going back to your earlier question about the reading Save the Cat and versus Save the Cat Writes a Novel. I would have to say realistically, I think it’s hard to go into this without any idea of what the actual Snyder’s Save the Cat is about. It would almost move you to just read both or read Snyder’s and then this one, or this one and then Snyder’s. Whichever way you want to go.
They are like together more than anything. Without the Save the Cat, going to Save the Cat Writes a Novel, you do get enough of it, but there’s a bit more that you would get if you read the actual Save the Cat.
Crys: And since my role on this particular podcast is the grumpy one, let’s talk about the titular cat. So, the Save the Cat trick is this. If you have a character who needs to grow, so often, they are not the most likable at the very beginning. So how do you take an unlikable character and make them likable. Like Snyder’s trick, that probably not his, but he took it from the industry and he made it popular, was to have them do something nice that says, oh, this person like has depth to them.
So, the idea is called Save the Cat. And so have them save a cat, doesn’t necessarily have to be a cat, but they need to do something nice. The problem that I have with this is that– maybe I’m wrong because I haven’tread Save the Cat in forever but I remember thinking this when I read it the first time –they don’t go into that being an intrinsic part of the character development. All they say is you have to show that your character isn’t a complete dish rag or terrible person, so they need to do something nice and just pick something nice. And that’s just so wrong in my book, personally, just saying, could rant on that forever.
Lon: But once again, it goes back to with movies you’re trying to appeal to the largest group possible. So, the thing is you have to do something so almost against the character’s own nature. To go and save a cat, even though they might be allergic to cats and hate cats, but then they actually go and save the cat because they have to do it because this is the beat that they need to do it to make the audience like them.
They will do something just because, and that’s part of the giant difference between movies and books.
Crys: Yeah, but I don’t think that the movies that I enjoy that do have a save the cat moment, don’t have the cat or the incident also means something about their character. I’m trying to think, let’s just use our traditional hero’s journey, Star Wars.
Luke’s a whiny brat, a hundred percent whiny brat. So, the nice thing that he does is, pick R-2 as well, probably. But it’s not super nice. Like they have reasons. And then the reason he goes after R-2 later is because, there are reasons he does things, and he’s not doing anything altruistic, he’s doing it for a reason.
And so, I just get really frustrated when craft books don’t discuss that connection, that it also has to build into your story.
Janet: Exactly. Like in this book, when it was talking about the life lessons, I feel like that’s so general and that’s something that we covered when we talked about Brian McDonald and the armature, is that you can’t be that basic. You have to drill down and there has to be more to it than that.
Lon: Crys, you basically hit upon the thing of, you can find the save the cat moment in Star Wars, but it means more because Lucas actually made sure to tie it in and make it part of the actual story. Whereas a bunch of people who make schlock movies who are following this beat sheet will have them save a cat, even though they’re allergic and hate cats because, oh, I have to hit that beat.
That’s the problem with a lot of writing books, even, is that there is such a generalization they have to do. They can’t drill down as much as we would really like them to because the problem is everyone has their own sort of like writing method and story method and ideas and how they come about and blah, blah, blah, that it’s very hard to do anything very in depth. And when you do, you will get something that sounds like, okay, great, that’s good for you. Doesn’t work for me. It doesn’t work for half the people who read the book. It’ s a bit of a wash sometimes.
So, it’s a balance.
Crys: This is one of the few things where I am just going to throw my foot down and say, it’s wrong. It’s wrong. And this particular thing is wrong.
JP: I think too, like to your point, I cannot think of any of the movies and I was trying to find them, but there are a handful of movies that I’ve seen, and there are plenty of books that I’ve seen, where the character is just entirely unlikable, but it’s their inner dialogue that’s hilarious. And they use that as their, I wouldn’t even call that save the cat, but it’s their point of getting the audience to relate and/or like the character, even as that character does unlikable things. And I would not consider that save the cat. I would think that’s almost the opposite because you’re never breaking the character’s personality or the character’s wants and needs in order to just prove to the audience that they can physically do something nice.
You’re just like, this guy’s an asshole, but he’s funny. Ha. So, I think that’s a way that you could quickly get your audience on the side of the character without having to break the character’s personality.
Crys: In defense of books like Save the Cat, I am okay with teaching, like the basics of: Hey, here’s storytelling 101.
We’re going to take a character that is easy to like, but they have to move from some kind of limp rag-ness to some kind of power, and so here are easy ways to do that, but it has to matter to the story. Cause what you’re talking about is not even next level. That’s like level five, like taking it an unlikable character and making them interesting enough that people want to watch them. Breaking Bad, for example, is like fifth level storytelling. And I’m not even saying that everyone has to watch that, I certainly haven’t finished it, but it cooked into so many people’s Addiction cycle because you took an unlikable character, made them extremely interesting, even made you resonate with them and be like, yeah, I’d do that too. And that’s not easy level storytelling. And the people who told that story had practiced for years, telling easier level stories. Sitcoms and hero’s journey-esque stories, things that are those, the linear plots are laid out.
When you get into the unlikable character, that’s next level. And I don’t expect something like Save the Cat to be like, Hey, and here’s how you do an unlikable. Cause they’re not doing that. They’re like, Hey, here’s the easiest way to fame and fortune, which is also lies, but still, that’s what they’re saying.
Rant mode activated.
Lon: But yeah, that is a big thing.
And I do completely agree to rant.
Crys: I would like to note in Marianne’s stead, she is not here, that there are no stick figure cat drawings in Save the Cat, either the original or Save the Cat Writes a Novel. She will take requests, however.
JP: One thing on this that I had, I don’t know, an issue with maybe, I don’t know, I’m less ranty than Crys. But this was something that caught me up when I was starting to write, because this was one of the first concepts that I was looking at, is the fun and games part, because I feel like that’s such an expansive place with such little explanation as to what the hell you’re supposed to do.
And that’s why I think it ended up being Brandon Sanderson first to open me up to the idea that your fun and games section is basically your character’s try fails. So, it’s their constant, like they try something, they fail and it’s a continual process that either escalates or whatever, in one direction of positive or negative until they ultimately succeed, or in this case in Save the Cat, they reach a point where they feel like they succeed, but they’re not truly succeeding. That was one part I know when I started writing and I was using Save the cat that I had no idea what to happen. And that’s kind why I abandoned Save the Cat was because of that section was so broad and was not helpful.
Janet: Speaking of going to that broad point, because we’ve been talking about movies, like I feel that, when you’re writing your main character, you’re thinking about your reader. We’re not thinking about the general public wanting to read our book.
Hey, that would be nice if everybody would, but we’re talking about specific readers. And so, I want to think about that more. What things am I putting in there? Not so that I can hit all of those marks that I’m supposed to at 15% and 78%. I’m thinking about, oh, I better put something in that the reader’s going to relate to.
Crys: Yeah.
Janet: And like them or not like them.
Crys: I’ll be completely honest that I do not recommend this book. Period. Oh, like the Save the Cat stuff at all, period. If that hasn’t been obvious. But the books that I do recommend, definitely Secrets of Story by Matt Bird probably would be my closest equivalent to Save the Cat that I think is better, but it was also written after Save the Cat so it had that to build on.
Which I think is important is that we are so many years after Save the Cat came out and storytelling and reader expectations have progressed. And so that’s probably where a lot of my anger comes from is I don’t like those wishy-washy stories that don’t tie these things tight together because I’ve been spoiled with tightly woven stories in media, in books.
And those are the kinds of things I want to read. So personal taste also, but even pulp can be tightly, anyways.
JP: Yeah. I would agree. Like I see a lot of these points getting hit in what I would consider popcorn movies. Raya the Last Dragon is great. It’s a great Disney movie, but its general audience is children.
And it just hits a lot of the same notes of almost every Disney film. Whereas like when I think of movies by A24, some of the like crazy horror ones, I don’t know if they actually hit all of these or if they’re just entirely different. And to your point, like those are almost on a different level of storytelling, in my opinion.
And I think I’m in the same boat as you, as, I don’t know if I would recommend this, I don’t feel like I would necessarily, unless someone really wanted a quick tool to reference for movies and they were going to use other platforms to write with.
Crys: And I want to clarify when I say another level, we’re not talking level of better, not level of quality. Level of difficulty. Just so we’re clear because I was not clear on that before.
Just because something is more difficult does not make it better.
Lon: I agree. It’s different. It’s different, not better.
And I don’t know if I would necessarily recommend this. I would say, if you want to look at something, I would give them the beat sheet.
Here’s the beat sheet, look at that. Once you’ve looked at it, once you got it in your head, okay, cool. Now toss it away and forget it and go actually write your story. And that’s basically it. I would say once you’re a little bit more confident where you’re going, you can look at it if you want or not.
And if you just want to understand how a lot of movies work, go for it, read Save the Cat.
Crys: Any last thoughts?
Janet: We didn’t answer Marianne’s question. Did the cat die?
Crys: I tried to murder it. I don’t know if I succeeded. The attempt was made.
I am the villain of this episode!
Well, thank you friends for joining us tonight. Next month we will be reading Wide for the Win by Mark Leslie Lefebvre. I believe with Erin Wright. Maybe just the forward from her. The recording for that will be July 14th, which means that it will come out on the 22nd to listen.
If you would like to join us for the live recording and submit your questions or your comments in the chat, as we are being absolute goofballs, see the chaos behind the scenes, please check out our Patreon at www.patreon.com/writeawaypodcast and for $400, you can do almost anything you want, but at $3 you will have early access to all the podcast episodes, and you’ll be able to join us live for a monthly book club recording as well as help us choose a future book club books. We will be putting up a vote soon for upcoming books, and we hope to see you in Patreon.
Thanks so much.
JP: See you later.
Janet: Bye.
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