Episode 114: Writing with Marketing in Mind

This week, Crys and JP continue their Season of Marketing by discussing the different methods they use to keep marketing in mind while writing.

Question of the week: What do you struggle with in marketing? And how can we help you? Share your answer here.

Show Notes

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Transcript

Crys: Hello, friends. Welcome to the Write Away Podcast. It is Friday, October 14th, 2022 as we are recording, and we are continuing on in our Season of Marketing episodes. Today, we won’t have a guest because we’ll be talking about writing with an eye toward marketing. And so this is a little bit like write to market ideology, but even more so like the practical aspects of keeping marketing in mind as you’re writing.

So when I say like keeping marketing in mind as you’re writing, what comes up for you, JP?

JP: Well, Crys, how has your week been?

Crys: Oh wait, hold on. Yeah, fuck. As evidenced by my absolute confusion in podcasting and in life, it’s been absolutely down the poophole. Tuesday, I went to drop my kid off only to find out that the kids would not have school for the rest of the week because there was a lot of sickness. And I did not know until yesterday whether it was just my school or it was all of Costa Rica because the wording from the school was very vague.

So I went looking for information yesterday and surprisingly it’s not COVID related. It is a combo of just a whole bunch of respiratory illnesses popping up in the children’s hospital, only one of which is COVID, and it is all of Costa Rica.

And certain areas of Costa Rica got hit pretty hard, specifically rural areas got hit pretty hard by Hurricane Julia, which may or may not have been a tropical storm when it hit. I didn’t look that far. And so there’s like a good number, dozens of schools that are flooded out in rural areas. So it was this combo, they’re calling it a rainy recess.

My app doesn’t notify me of communications from the school, like maybe 50% of the time it does this. So I didn’t find out when they sent it at 10:20 at night, I found out when I got to the school. And then I thankfully checked it the next day just to see if there was an update, and they just are like, oh, and we’re going to be doing remote schooling today. Here’s the link, here’s the schedule. I’m like, oh good, that this was not in my plan, but we can make this work.

And now I’m just in this holding on to sanity for dear life phase while not knowing if we’re actually going to have school next week or if they’re going to extend this. The school is moving forward as if we’re going to have school next week. But also, like I’ve said, maybe they’ll cancel it again. So I don’t know.

And that’s where I’m at. Though while making my kids Halloween costume yesterday, I did come up with a good part of the twist end of my fantasy. So that’s good. Now I just have to implement it, which is impossible at this point in time.

JP: Yay. Madness.

Crys: How about you? Did you pick up the slack? Did you pick up the slack on being productive?

JP: I would say I’ve been productive-ish. So I’ve been working on the fun, cozy thing that I’ve been working on. I don’t know why I’m making that all mysterious, but I am right now, I guess. I’m trying to make a couple episodes, I’ve been kind of stuck. I was stuck on episode seven, now I’m on episode eight, but things are moving along nicely. It’s been really fun to just write this.

I had an original outline when I had one POV, but I’ve broken it into three, and I’m just kinda like letting the story come as it goes. I don’t know why I said it that way again, but again, very flowery. But what that means is I don’t really know when I’m gonna hit certain points, I just know the next like six-ish episodes. It’s been really nice to just write that way. So yeah, I can’t wait until I get my cover because then I will be posting it shortly after.

Crys: Yeah. So you’re just waiting on launching until you get the cover back?

JP: Yeah. The service I used told me that they’re illustrating, and I definitely did not pay for illustrating, so I’ll take it. I don’t know what that means or what it looks like, but it’s taking a little longer than I expected.

Crys: Yeah. Excellent. Okay, so now we can go back to our topic. This is a tiny winy, wibbly wobbly episode, which is the writing with an eye toward marketing. So back to my question, what comes to mind for you when we say writing with an eye toward marketing?

JP: For me, that’s really looking at this current Vella series. I think that Cozy Urban Fantasy is a niche area that has a few really big hit books but doesn’t have ton of books in that space. So I think that’s a really fun place to explore. So when I think about writing with an eye towards marketing, I think about what are these potential places to explore, with the idea that maybe I’m more on that fringy end of trying to fit into these smaller served markets.

Crys: Yeah, so for me, the first time I think about marketing is when I think, what genre does my book belong to? Who am I going to market it to? And for most of us, our biggest retailer is going to be Amazon, so we’re often thinking of it in Amazon categories. But as you move wide, you can think less about that and more about, which is always strong, like where do my readers live? For me, like that’s TikTok, right? Like TikTok is a big source of cozy fantasy and romance. And for the romance, also Facebook.

So the first thing I need to know is what genre am I writing. I’ve had so many friends and clients who have found themselves after writing a book in a cross genre space, that it is very difficult for them to figure out how am I gonna market this. Because they don’t know is this more romance, is this more sci-fi, is this more fantasy? Which kind of element am I going to market primarily? Which audience will this satisfy the most?

So my number one tip to anyone writing is to simply know what their genre is. A lot of people this is hard for because they haven’t finished their first book. I think it’s really hard to fathom really having a clear idea of what your genre is for most people, especially folks who find themselves in like the sci-fi fantasy realm because there’s always a bit of genre mashup, or not always, but often a bit of genre mashup because there are so many little sub genres. I think most people learn to write to know what their genre is. And not even write specifically to that genre, but know what their genre is after they’ve had the pain of trying to market a multi genre book.

JP: So that makes me think of a couple of projects that I’ve been working on. And the NRDS serial, for example, that’s really developed into an LGBT romance, but we’re not gonna market it as an LGBT romance because it is a paranormal humor first and foremost. I think that one thing new writers should think about when they’re writing their stories is that your story does have a genre, it has to have a shelf that it goes onto. It might have multiple shelves.

You might think that it’s a brand new, unique genre in and of itself. But the people we need to market to, they of need to know what flavor this is most, like what I categorize this as? Because people love categories, and if you are trying to sit on this fringe edge of things, you run the risk of people not wanting to try it at all.

So you have to think about what is that first and foremost genre. What is this most like? What can you say are the top three books that this is most like, or the top three movies that this is most like, that you can define the genre?

Crys: Yeah, I remember like back before indie publishing days when I’d be at writer groups and we’d be having conversations about genre, and the phrase that was often thrown about was like, genre is just for marketing, which is true, 100%. Genre is just for marketing, just write the book and then let the publisher figure out how they’re gonna sell it.

The problem is for us indies, we are the publisher. So we cut out a lot of pain and agony if we can figure out how to market it, or like how we’re gonna position it, before we even start writing it.

JP: A hundred percent. And, to me, knowing what genres it fits in helps in the planning stages because I can know what would my market, my audience, what would they like to see in this genre? And then I can really play up with those expectations. If I’m just writing something that I feel is completely new, I have no framework to work off of. And I don’t know, I think that that can run a risk, not only for how you develop your story, but also how you can market it and how you can tell people what this is like.

Crys: Yeah, moving a bit more into the writing to market, this definition and description, once you know your genre, most of us are heavy readers of that genre, so we know what are the kind of tried and true things that we absolutely need to have to position it to that market. Most genres are not as strict as say horror or romance about what those expectations are. But in romance, you have to have a particular kind of arc that it will provide satisfaction for the readers. And if you do not hit that particular arc, it is not a romance, so you’re not gonna be able to market it to romance authors.

For example, a lot of people who don’t know romance will be like, oh, Nicholas Sparks, A Walk to Remember, The Notebook, that’s romance, right? Because it’s a love story. It absolutely is not. Those are tragedies. They end sadly, they are not romances and a romance reader would eviscerate you for saying that, right? But if you don’t know what romance is and what romance expects, you might equate love story with romance. A romance is always a love story, but a love story is not always a romance.

With genres like contemporary fiction that’s not romance, or sci-fi fantasy, historical fiction, you have so many more options for a satisfying story arc. And if you’re a Story Grid nerd, they refer to these as internal genres, like what that story arc is. I find that far too confusing terminology, so I don’t like it. But you know, are you telling a sub-genre that has a romance? Are you primarily like sci-fi fantasy with a romantic subplot? Are you primarily sci-fi fantasy but with a mystery? Are you primarily sci-fi fantasy but it’s an adventure or it’s kind of an epic coup overthrowing justice?

There’s so many ways you can take that story, that I think that matters a little less with like trying to focus your writing, but it’s super helpful to know those things as you are writing and thinking, how am I going to market this?

JP: Yeah, which first thing I think of, especially when you start talking about like a sci-fi detective thing, is the best way to convey that is through a cover. Because like I immediately, I’m seeing certain things within that sci-fi detective realm recently that have been that double exposure image, where it will show that sort of noir detective and/ or just like a big close up face, but it’s double exposed with a ship out in space. And that way you’re hitting that noir detective movie poster feel with a space aspect. And that tells someone right away, this is sci-fi and this has something to it, and in that case, it would be something detective or something sort of police. I think that that’s gonna be knowing what your niche genre is is the best way of getting it to look that way in a cover by handing it over to professionals that can understand what that genre looks like.

Crys: Now, say you have something that is epic fantasy, right? That is there’s maybe like a slight like a couple sub genres there. Whether it’s sword and sorcery, whether it’s dark fantasy or grim dark, or more just like action adventure. There’s still so effing much that can happen in those sub genres. Like they aren’t like as tight as like urban fantasy where you need to have one of these three kind of setups for it to be considered like a true urban fantasy. There’s so much room.

So what you do to figure out how you’re gonna market that book, instead is you think of — you can call them tropes, Theodore Taylor calls them the butter. Oh, I forgot her name, she’s a psychologist. The Id list, Jennifer Lynn Barnes calls it the Id list thing. You have to think of the things that when you see that there’s a movie with those things, or a book with those things in it, they immediately grab you because you’re like, Ooh, it’s, you know, a cave, a city, and there’s intrigue and necromancers. If those are like your things that you’re like, oh my gosh, I love those things, they’re just gonna grab you and run with it.

Going to like the sci-fi mystery example, the book Six Wakes, when for a mystery, I think often the first like catcher is your big question, your big thing that the characters are finding out. Like the hook is super strong in those books and a lot easier to market to. There’s Adam Croft’s Would You Kill Your Wife to Save Your Daughter hook. Six Wakes, like I don’t have a specifically like tight hook for that, but like when I tell you that there’s a bunch of clones in a spaceship who don’t know why the spaceship has stopped and why they all died because they were resurrected. And one of them is probably a murderer, but they don’t know who because they’ve all had their minds wiped. That’s the hook, right? Like I’ve laid out clones, spaceship, lost in space, murderer, amnesia. Like those are all like butter. They’re all Id list things. Those are the things that you’re gonna lead with your marketing.

So knowing that for your particular book, whether it is a grim dark fantasy where you’re like, Okay, like this is a battle for the throne. We’ve got necromancer, magic maybe. Like you list out all the things, you’re like, Okay, these are the things I’m gonna center my marketing around.

JP: Yeah. And with the direction I’m going with this Cozy Urban Fantasies, I want to put it on Vella, just for accountability. I really like the Vella platform. It’s also a, what I’m calling, cozy suburban fantasy because I just find it funny. It’s something that I want to savor over, and so by putting it episodically weekly, it slows those initial readers down. It forces them to savor the episode. I don’t know if that’s gonna work or not, but I know that that’s kind of what the whole Vella platform is for. You read along with it being written, and I really like that aspect to it, especially when it comes to something that’s meant to be like a fun, cozy sort of read that you just kinda, oh, every week, you know, a new episode of blah blah, blah comes out.

So that’s the marketing direction I’m going for is like, in my head, I want these Vella episodes to be this sort of like over a long period of time you read these chapters as opposed to through one day.

Crys: Yeah. So your intention for distribution is affecting how you are writing it because of how you intend to market it. So you’re like, you’re writing it in chunks in these episodes because of how you are structuring it or how you’re planning on marketing it.

So for that, what would you say are the kind of the visual elements, or tropes, or Id lists that you are using to describe this book or series, and will you use in your marketing?

JP: Okay. Thank you for putting me on the spot.

Crys: I’m gonna put myself on the spot next.

JP: I’ve definitely thought of all of these. In my means of trying to explain it to people, it’s like the show Charmed, but with less stakes and much more gay. What I really want it to be is this, I’m thinking like magical creatures that are just in this neighborhood. They are concealed from the outside world. We’ve got a magical house that may or may not be alive. We have three queer characters who come into this completely unaware, and then they become these members of this neighborhood. So it’s meant to be this whole like comfy neighborhood, magical, Hallmark-y kind of thing. So those are the hit words that I’m thinking of.

So when I’m marketing for it, I’m mostly thinking of — I’m trying to think through Canva, because I’m like, I’m not gonna draw any of this — would be like a lot of plants because it’s very plant focused. The entire series is called Henbane Hollow. The first season is called Mandrake Manor. They live on Wormwood Way. It’s just meant to be quirky, funny, whimsical. So a lot of the marketing will be plant focused. So for anyone in the queer community, it’s like the plant — I don’t wanna say it — it’s like the plant daddy people. But yeah, that’s the people I’m aiming towards is that kind of group of people. A lot of hipster-y looks to it as well.

Crys: Yeah, Plant Dad gays inherit magic and discover a hidden supernatural world.

JP: A hundred percent. It’s also maybe a slight to the fact that I wish that I could be plant parent, but I kill everything. So this is my way of writing it on the page because then they can’t die.

Crys: You can’t die, you’re immoral in my words.

And it’s fun because our tastes clearly have some crossover because we’re friends and we like some things that are the same. So with mine, some elements for my cozy fantasy, it is more of an epic fantasy world with a small focus. So my marketing is like the worst assassin in the world, so failed assassin. It plants lots of plants because they’re a poisoner who becomes an herbalist accidentally. Told you I was putting myself on the spot as well. Quirky characters, anachronistic characters, which I love.

So we have this epic fantasy setting, but I’ve put in some world building that allows me to have characters that are very much from like our time and feels and it not seem like this is stupid. Like, why are these people here? They wouldn’t, they don’t fit. They won’t fit for the main character at first, they’ll be like, what the eff is going on? So I get to have super flamboyant characters if I want, in our particular flavor of the Western modern flamboyant. I just rewatched Bedknobs and Broomsticks, and so Professor Emelius Brown is very flamboyant. I can have that kind of flamboyant, I can also have modern flamboyant. I can have literally any kind of character from any kind of time.

And so there’s in true cozy fantasy like flavor, it has a world where there’s a lot of high stakes happening around them, but the stakes in this story are very personal, relational, and high for the character, but low for the world.

JP: Yeah.

Crys: Now, as I say that, that doesn’t feel like enough like of a handful of marketing images. So what that tells, now that like we’ve talked this out, is that I need to sit down and make a list of all the focus and the things that I want to bring into the story. And this I’m writing without an outline, which I normally don’t do. And I may be able to create an outline now that I know what kind of my ending is, because if I don’t know the ending, I don’t know how to write an outline. I can’t write to in it feels weird. But now that I know what the ending is, I may be able to write an outline, which then will allow me to figure out some of these aspects earlier.

Now, if I am not able to write an outline, this will be a continual process of me grabbing up my list of what this story is and what it contains. So this is for the non-plotters out there, is it’s a process as I’m writing. I’m making a list of, ah, these are things that I know that I really love when it’s in another story. And then therefore, I know there are other readers who will really love this.

And if you could make an actual list, whether it’s a file on your computer or a paper that you keep next to your computer, to have those like written down, that is super helpful. Because you are not gonna remember when you get to the finish line and finish your first draft what any of those things were. If you’re anything like me, your brain’s just gonna go poof, And that’s not fun. Then you have to do all that work of figuring things out again.

The other thing I do when I’m writing — or I try to do, I’m not always good at this — is when I write a scene and think, ah, that would be a great snippet to share, I try and copy it out into a marketing file. And so I’m like, okay, these are great scenes to share for teaser previews. This might only work for people who have an audience already, but it might also work for if you’re publishing or if you’re sharing information in reader groups, whether that’s on Facebook or anywhere else. If they have a functionality for authors to share little bits and pieces of their work, those are great. And I try and keep images, or if I’m writing as an idea, I’m like, ah, yes, this is quintessential a scene that is a trope. Like for romance, if you have the one bed trope, you’re like, ah, yes, I need to mark here, whether it’s a comment or I copy some of it out, like Yes, this is a scene that I can use in marketing because readers want to know that it has this. Like that’s an Id list item for people.

JP: Yeah. Yeah. When I am thinking of doing like marketing towards like posting this on social media, whatever, I am following people that write within that same genre to see what they’re doing. Then using the Id list that we’re developing, focusing on what’s different between how they market it versus what I can add to the table. That’s one of the most important things for me is to follow other people within that genre so that you know like how did they succeed then use that. That’s what I would do.

Crys: A hundred percent. That is super, super helpful when you have those comparison authors and see what’s making them successful because they are already reaching the audience you wanna reach.

Last thing for writing with an eye toward marketing?

JP: Don’t overburden yourself.

Crys: Yeah. Yeah. I think that is a good point, is that you can get too caught up on knowing all of your marketing stuff that it hinders you from writing this story, either because you’re trying to write to market too much and force yourself down a path that isn’t natural for you as a storyteller. It’s always good to stretch yourself to see if you can write a particular kind of story, but if it’s not fun and you’re stopping yourself from moving forward, don’t do it. And also like we can just get so caught up in doing everything perfect. The point of this is not to do it right, the point of this is to make it easier for yourself later on. If it’s not making it easy, then it’s not useful.

JP: Yeah, so like for me, I don’t think about any of this when I’m writing because what I’ve done is prior to trying to develop the story, I’ve said, where can this fit? And what pieces can I turn from it? So then it dwindled all the way down to Charmed, low stakes but gay. Then I think about when I write, I think about that and I think about who that person is and I’m writing for them. That filters everything else out because then I don’t have to think about, is this cozy enough? Is this blah, blah, blah enough? Because I’m just focusing on telling one person a story. So that’s how I do it, is I will push out all the rest of the noise and then I’ll bring that noise back in whenever I actually need to make posts about it, do blah, blah, blah about it. But for writing, one thing, just focus on writing for one person.

Crys: I, with the romance, I don’t do that. I very much am always in mind of what the marketing will be. And for me, that’s because romance is so trope based. It is so strictly journey, that it is at times less of a creative following of the story and more of a technical following of the expectations. I will lose myself in a scene, which is great, but I rarely lose myself in the full telling of the story. And so I’m always keeping in mind — and this is 60-something books I think — that I’m always keeping in mind what are the moments that the readers are gonna really respond to? How do I put things in there that are going to specifically draw people when I’m writing romance?

With the Cozy Fantasy, I’m very much writing at the moment for myself. I’m like, Okay, what quirky, fun, entertaining thing can I bring in next that will make me laugh? That will be pretty? Like what are the fun like visual elements that I would just delight in if I saw it? Right now, I’m writing very much to myself with that, and not thinking about what another kind of reader would really enjoy. And not every book has to be written exactly the same.

JP: Yep. Definitely.

Crys: All right. I think we are going to wrap up here. This has been a longer episode for us, but I think we had a lot of good things to say. And my question for our listeners is, as we approach this season of marketing, not specifically to this episode, but as we approach this season of marketing, what do you struggle with with marketing? And how can we help you?

We’re going to be bringing on some experts to talk about different topics across the whole gamut of marketing, as we said in our last episode, to bolster us as we’re diving into a few new projects that could use some new marketing energy. And that’s where we are.

We’re so glad that you’re sticking with us, and we will be here next week.

JP: See you later.